Posted by: Heather | February 19, 2012

Ephesians 2:6

I know we’re not supposed to rejoice that the spirits are subject to us (Luke 10:20), but they really are subject to us, and so is everything else in heaven.

Ephesians 2:4-6

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ–by grace you have been saved–and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus [emphasis mine.]

I understood that in the Millennial Reign, the saints were ruling and reigning with Christ. I did not find out until this morning that, in fact, the saints are ruling with Christ now.  We are already seated in him. In the age to come, it will be evidence of God’s loving kindness (2:7). Right now, it is evidence of God’s multifaceted wisdom to the heavenly rulers and authorities (3:10).

Friend, if you are a saint of God, you are in Christ, seated at the right hand of God above all principalities, powers, rulers, and authorities in the heavenly realm. They all know who you are. Do you know who you are?

And now, how do I pray if my words are coming from the throne of Christ? Differently, I hope.

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Responses

  1. Hello Heather, once again you’ve sparked a thought or two for me. 🙂

    Do you believe that when we die we ‘sleep and know nothing’ (Eccl 9:5) until the second coming? How is it we can be with Christ, in heaven, when we are alive, but once we are dead .. is the connection broken until He wakes us up again? I wonder more if it is not that Christ is here, within each of us, waiting to be recognised?

    • You know, that’s a subject my friends and I hash and rehash a lot. I’ll be the first to admit I don’t have it all worked out, but I lean toward the sleepers (dead & in covenant) being awakened at the first resurrection for the Millennial reign and the rest waking later on judgment day–the day when the sea and everything else gives up the dead. In the interest of full disclosure, I’ll tell you what three things influence my thinking on death:
      1) Bryan Huie’s “Are the Dead Conscious,” which is long enough that I should post a summary rather than drop a link, but I’m dropping the link anyway. I don’t go for everything in the article–some I haven’t researched and some sort of stretch the verses, but I do think it was the first article I read that made me consider that “sleep” was more than a metaphor: http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=the-Dead ;
      2) The Book of Enoch–have you read it? It describes different resting or storage places for the dead;
      3) I really love to sleep, so I have a vested interest in thinking of death as the best, most peaceful sleep I will ever have in my–I mean, *after*–my life. : )

  2. […] about the concept of vengeance in the bible, OT & NT, but got distracted by a blog from Heather “Move from this Mountain” and then dropped in on Stephen’s Space where he has taken all my questions in my second post […]

    • Hi Heather,

      Yes, I’ve read all of Enoch, 1, 2 & 3, they are part of my collection on my bookshelves.

      Do you believe that Christ resides within each of us since Acts 2? I wonder if the Holy Spirit is the solution to the problem of Babel – because everyone knew what everyone else was saying, although each was speaking their ‘own’ language?

      Love & Peace
      Ama

      • In my experience (and by that I mean I’m fully aware that my knowledge on this is incomplete), having had an Acts 2 baptism of the Holy Spirit–and thus being able to contrast that with the time before I had that experience–I see the Holy Spirit as a promise poured out on the repentant “whosoever wills” crowd, “even as many as the Lord our God shall call.” So I don’t think everyone has it, but I believe everyone can have it, and–strangely enough–I’ve even met people who have it but don’t know they have it.

        Regarding Babel, yes, I can’t help but feel that’s part of a grand inverted storyline (you probably know the word for it, but I don’t), the ABC CBA kind of story structure where one of the A positions marks Babel’s dispersion and the later A marks Acts 2? Or perhaps Acts 2 is the middle and the real story goes from Babel on one end all the way to when God purifies a language at the end? It’s a neat thought! 🙂

        • If we do not get it (filled with the Spirit) unless we are repentant, but you know people who have this gift, without them knowing it, are any of them non Christian, or non-repentant? And what then is the ‘spirit’, the voice of God through us, the power to prophecise or simply those who know how to love with their whole hearts, unreservedly?

          Babel – yes it is a neat thought. It is a great pity the voice of heaven is not already within all our hearts, though I do believe the Christ energy is there within each of us. The song of heaven belongs to all of God’s creations, even if sometimes we don’t all sing the same words.

          Love & Peace
          Ama

  3. Re: one person who had the gift of the holy spirit in the Acts style did call himself a Christian. To my mind, that seems to indicate repentance–but to what extent and about what, I can’t know, of course. 🙂 But he said sometimes he’d be praising the Lord and not even know what he was saying, not understand the language that was coming out of his mouth. I must have asked him if he “spoke in tongues” or maybe I used some other biblical but odd phrase, and he assured me that he did no such thing, and yet, he described the same experience I had when I was filled with the spirit. 😛 That’s what leads me to believe there are plenty of people out there who have the spirit but don’t realize that’s what it is. 🙂

  4. In the end I think its all just about how we ‘label’ things. I agree that many people ‘have the spirit’ and do speak for God, without knowing it. They help ease the hearts of the lost and lonely, the frightened ones, and those seeking God without knowing what they are seeking. I have certain gifts of the Spirit that I work with. I have, on occasion, said things that surprised me, things I could not know, but that helped people in unexpected ways. I always thank God for taking care of all of us. Outside the church I am labelled a heretic, inside it .. I would be called a ‘visionary’ or having the gift of discernment etc. People hide from God because they are frightened of other people .. but God knows our hearts.

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  5. Ama, “Christ energy?” This is new age language. Christ, or Yeshua is not an invisible vapor, nor is the Holy Spirit. Both are described as a person or “he.” Something real even though they cannot be seen. Energy has no body, no substance, cannot be grieved, cannot lead into truth, cannot comfort, does not have emotions etc. But Yeshua and the Holy Spirit do possess these attributes.

    Also, I have thoughts about people not knowing they are indwelled with the Holy Spirit. If God draws you, and you respond, then you get the Holy Spirit. How can God send His Holy Spirit upon you without your knowledge or consent? There are people who can offer encouragement and do good things for people but if it’s done without faith (or fidelity towards Yeshua), then its done in the flesh and counts for nothing. People can even prophecy in His name but they still might hear “Lord Lord have we not prophecies in your name…?” Yet Yeshua says, “I never knew you.” So you can’t go by that.

    Also, let’s think this out logically. If a bad tree cannot produce good fruit, (Matt 7:18) then how can one have the Holy Spirit and not know it? Their fruits are evidence of which master they serve (and thus what seed was planted). Now there are people who believe they have good fruit but they have deceived themselves. But this is the reverse of what you were talking about. Millions of people are deceived already and they claim to be following Yeshua but they are not.

    We should take our cues from the bible. Everything that is Truth is modeled for us in the bible already. Is there an instance where someone had the Holy Spirit and didn’t know it? Not that I can recall. But there is an instance where the Lord left Samson and he didn’t know it.

    Judges 16:20 Then she called, “Samson, the Philistines are upon you!” He awoke from his sleep and thought, “I’ll go out as before and shake myself free.” But he did not know that the LORD had left him.)

    It’s good to talk these things out Heather. 🙂 But Ama, your choice of words in “Christ energy” is not biblical and is new age.

    Shalom – carol

    • Hi Carol,

      I agree that Christ energy is new age language. Having once worked in the new age industry for over 10 years, as well as being a Christian at the time, I learned to speak both ‘languages’, in both camps, or in either, as the need arose. The Christ energy is the Holy Spirit to me, it is not a vapour .. and it’s not a liar, it’s a tangible and beautiful force alive in the hearts of all people, no matter what they believe, or don’t believe, whether they are aware of it or not. You define it your way, and I understand it mine – both end up being ‘of God’, which is all that is really important to me.

      Energy has body, just ask anyone who has been struck by lightning .. it can knock you off your feet. And I’ve been tapped on the shoulder by ghost and angels .. they have no body either, but they have been just as real for me, often just as solid, as you are, somewhere far away in the world, who I cannot see or touch, but can communicate with. 🙂

      I agree that God won’t interfere in our free will. That’s something I tell people all the time. If some of those people would rather see the ‘goddess’ rather than the judgmental Christian God, but the results are the same, then I am not going to demand they use the Christian language to prove their faith-filled hearts, nor am I going to assume that I am capable of seeing, or not seeing, the Holy Spirit within their hearts. If they do good, if they draw people back to Love, to truth and trust and honour and faith .. the OT God might see them as unchristian, but I don’t see Jesus’ God doing the same. Didn’t he say ‘love EVERYONE as I have loved you’? I believe God sees into all our hearts, not just those of suitable faith.

      Define a bad tree for me. I live in an apple orchard. Some of the trees have been split in half by overbearing .. that’s because of bad pruning .. or lightning strikes, are those trees bad, or they have rot within the trunk, and yet they still produce beautiful fruit. Is a tree covered in thorns, like the hawthorn, bad, because its fruit is unpalatable to me, although it’s a remarkable natural tonic for the whole human body? Is there one perfect person on this planet, that doesn’t have some ‘bad’ part to their nature .. some inner sin they have not confessed .. if they are into confession? A person seen as evil by one, might have the most loving heart .. may produce the sweetest fruit – given half the chance. If they will not answer to God, by their choice, but will to God by another name, does that make them bad? Being a good Christian you will probably say yes .. which is why I’m not a good Christian. I will find God within every single person I meet, the Christ energy (Holy Spirit) that empowers our souls, in all of them, and I will see no bad fruit .. no matter how much the television news wants me to. Now there’s an example of a bad tree, in my opinion.

      It’s very easy not to know you have the Holy Spirit within you when you are tired and broken and do not know what to have faith in anymore. I wish Jesus would reach down and pick up a whole lot more people than he seems to be doing these days. No, instead we have the churches landing judgments on all and sundry, while not keeping their own houses clean. And if the ‘fruits are evident of the master they serve’ .. let’s talk paedophile priests etc? Or better yet, let’s not.

      I know you base your faith in the Holy Bible, Carol, and I honour you for that – but to me the Bible is a book of myth, mystery, contradiction and confusion. It has created more harm than good .. through misinterpretation by various people using it as a reason to murder others who do not follow their faith. My faith is based in God and Jesus Christ, through personal experiences and visions. God gave me gifts the Bible condemns, but I’ve had them since birth, and I was baptised in faith by my parents, and exorcised by Bishops in later life, and still follow that faith in my heart. What God also gave me you’ll find in 42:1-4. When I got my new copy of the NOAB Bible late last year, to add to my collection of a dozen different versions (all purporting to be accurate translations, and yet so different from each other?), I asked God to give me a message so that I could follow him more closely, he gave me that one. I wish I could be that small quiet voice .. but in this time of ‘wonders’ .. no one seems to be really listening? LOL

      BTW, the phrase “let’s be logical about this” is one I use too. Lovely. 🙂

      Wishing you a great day,
      Love & Peace
      Ama

  6. Carol, I’m all about taking my cues from the Bible, and I see what you’re saying. Romans 2:14-16 (I wish I could link to it here) describes quite a few Christians I know and have known. The law is spiritual and bears spiritual fruit. In those verses, Paul is saying there are pagans who act in accordance with the law even though they don’t have knowledge of the law. I had that happen to me! There were things I objected to that happened to be against God’s law, but I didn’t know they were against God’s law; all I knew was that I didn’t feel right about them.
    I guess I don’t think all Christians understand fruit or how to look for it. (And please don’t misunderstand me to be suggesting that I have perfect knowledge of anything because I don’t!) If someone looked, yes, I agree with you that he could tell, but many Christians are under the impression that they should “judge not,” so they don’t look at fruit.
    I certainly don’t think people receive the holy spirit against their consent. Well, but there’s Balaam; but then again, he consented to hear from God, but he just didn’t like what he heard, so I would still say consent can be there even without full understanding. For example, Israel’s “We will do and obey” oath before they heard the whole law.
    I wasn’t trying to come up with a strange new doctrine when I said people can have the spirit and not know it. I was just describing cases where people would say they don’t have the spirit or say they don’t know if they have the spirit, and yet they obviously did have the spirit. As you put it, the fruit–the evidence–was there.


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